Salon HR and furlough Scheme With David Wright

Video Transcript

Talking All About Your Staff Concerns In This Current Climate. David works closely as the HABIA HR expert and also writes an employment law article in Professional Beauty magazine every month. We discuss Furlough, Staff Holidays, Redundancy and so much more

anyway right so we are live with David right and things

Oh, David, I am so so grateful for you jumping on this um first of all and also and appreciated because yesterday obviously we couldn’t do this and so we ended up having to pop it back after today but anyone who doesn’t know David right David and is fantastic HR advisor writes regularly for professional beauty advisor to Xavier

the thing is that we’ve just been chatting before coming on here yet and you know I know I mean I know the amount of questions that I’ve had in emails and calls I’ve had over the last few days.

but David is literally getting emails a day and you know it so you can imagine he cannot come back to everyone because it’s just an impossible thing to do so you know hopefully today we can go through a lot of things that and possibly he was thinking of contact and David about and but anyone that you are contacting at the moment obviously just please remember that you’re not the only person like everyone’s going through it but as well the person who is the expert isn’t an expert at the moment because we’ve never been through this scenario before and you know everyone’s going through their own personal circumstances with this as well so and I just wanted to say that to hopefully I mean I’ve got questions

this is condensed down from literally I mean it started off with I think by yesterday I had about
questions so I’ve condensed it down to because a lot of them obviously overlapped so my thinking David is that if we run through everything yeah no I think you said that Boris Johnson’s going to make an announcement later today oh well nobody knows but thing everybody expects today to be of a day when we’ll be announcement about support for employees dozen will be a date for closed down but everyone thinks that’s going to come as well we don’t know so my thinking a lot of these that questions really are gonna relate to what’s in someone’s contract and a lot of it’s been a real HT so it’s not what I’m sayin is it’s not one answer fixes everything is it at the moment no it’s not exactly yeah so all we can J was trying and give the best advice that we can at the moment and but the and but after they straight after these we’ve got sue Ingram and doing a call as well and she and specialized within how to handle like awkward conversations so anyone who has got to have an awkward conversation with that team then sue I’ll hopefully take like well it will help with that in an early again some of like the questions you’re getting as well Damon like emails a day is like sort of like bogged down with everything and I know you shortened your holiday I mean like was supposed to be holiday but like improperly and everybody gets three lines in capitals but doesn’t answer the question so it is difficult so everyone please just bear with everyone who’s trying to help at the moment right sue honestly a couple of weeks ago everybody tickety-boo with all along with the salon with the team everything fine and then it’s like this is hate and not just so I have said everyone’s got different circumstances going on in the background got thrown on top of that I obviously there’s the the carry on with the shops and and everything going on so you know it’s a stressful situation anyway for everyone so they we just gonna run through so everything fine so now well everyone’s saying it like the options um at the moment either still trying to pay the stuff and just carry on reducing the hours lay in them off or making them redundant it’s the thing so most of the questions follow that okay are you ready David yes question one right it’s the difference of action whether you decide to reduce hours yourself or whether and you decide to close yourself or if we go down into lockdown is it a different scenario I’m gonna be talking very generally but if the government tell us to close we don’t know what listen how he always because he hasn’t happened yet all the government is we want to try and retain our key staff what to try and retain all staff we don’t want to be dismissing people because we’re going to want to come out at the end of this long tunnel but Isis Johnson tonight will tell us what financial assistance going to be around for employers and employees but the first part let’s assume in when nothing happens reducing hours is fantastically difficult you can’t do we unilaterally you’d have to be talking to staff and saying as an alternative to redundancy if you can drop this number of hours while keepers going through another month or you can offer one paid leave or you can ask staff to use some leave has to be in the context of as an alternative to redundancy yeah yeah right question to do staff have different rights if they have a contract or not in this situation well if you’ve got a contract but is we employees rights if you don’t have a contract you’ve got a real problem to be honest because we’re arms and you so we’re difficulties are the minimum standard would apply automatically but if it was if there was a dispute with an employee anybody who’s hearing that is going to err on the side of belief and we employee because the employers not carried out their basic duties so legally you have to give stuff a contract within eight weeks so if you haven’t you won’t finish whatever you do one of the questions if someone hasn’t given a contract because I know from the first of April it was coming in that someone it was yeah wait so will that still be enforced a contract on the first day now that’s going to be the law hasn’t been taken away I think the issue is what is somebody going to do if they haven’t we don’t imagine people are going to give what we’re job or tailor employer to court but it just means that realistically if you can to think of you letting people go in the occupation period and make them say what probation period and you’re giving me a contract the contracts always good because he confirms it could confirm to your rules Yeah right right oh can you explain how it works if we decide to reduce that with does it have to be in writing and before you can’t just we do somebody’s hours you can’t say to me David you work hours a week as a therapist and I’m cutting your hours to next week you haven’t you haven’t got that facility by just being unlawfully looking to pay I’m sure in the world some people will do it and some people will accept it but I need to tell you what legally should happen and you haven’t got that right so putting it in writing or doing it verbally would make no difference it wouldn’t be legal to do is persuade the employee to agree to it because I know this happen a lot what if sorted because you know everyone has fantastic employees or almost talents – if you know if they if there’s a big gap or someone say supposed to be at work until and they’ve got nothing in from lunchtime and they decide that to go home and reduce their I was voluntarily what how does that work absolutely fine so if you’ve got if you’ve got out of a blue or Tuesday afternoon with no customers of course if a staff wants to go home unpaid that’s fine if you want to use some holiday that’s fine if it was happening on a regular basis and we didn’t have a coronavirus you’d be looking at why am i employing that person what number of hours when I’ve regularly got gaps you say afternoon we employee agrees to go home do something absolutely find no problem with that and in this situation can that carry on and find to be realistic about it if I’m if I’m and live at home I’m probably much more financially independent when if my wages pay for a mortgage of my car so I think it’s really a matter of who will volunteer so staff probably maybe even prefer to go home if you’ve got knowable clients but that’s a chunk out of their wages and that’s why they need to agree right and just length of service make a difference but does everyone have the same rights in this length of service a lot of fact link to service really is only a factor for things like unfair dismissal is two years we don’t Dempsey is two years so and even with redundancy the suggestion is for you don’t think lastin first-out we should be the newest employees because they would typically in fear me be the youngest person so becomes age discrimination so I think I’ve always been commended but you just treat the staff the same so if you’ve got an issue you speak to all the staff and say before I look at me London says if people can agree to take I don’t know a week’s leave in the next three weeks or a week some pay even next three weeks that will help now when you touched on this a little bit can we make anyone take on paid leave and use holidays can we enforce that there’s a sort of yes and no will you continue you can you can make people take holidays you can’t make them take unpaid holidays and we’re all for taking holidays I’ll give you an example because it’s it’s easier than it sounds it’s twice the length as the duration so if you want everyone to take Friday off next week one day you have to give them at least two days notice if you want people to take a week off you have to give them two weeks notice if you want two people take two weeks off is four weeks notice so this is quite helpful if you can look in my diary on a look at the end of a way you’ve got a really short day you can give them people notice to take holiday and they have two very unpopular to imagine because people treasure their holidays and and use them but with a source close in you might find that people are much more receptive to either using holidays or taking unpaid leave triggered with a lot of people and yet can a staff member but object to that holidays that’s that’s that’s in law so can you give you my notice you can insist staff take holidays just by the by one of my
emails yesterday was from someone who wanted stuff to use all of their holiday for the year and people were very uneasy about having used all their holidays because we didn’t know for business we’ll be there in a few months and I think that’s much more questionable I think if you asking book to take a week or two weeks or a few days but ask someone to take five weeks holiday and have non left and have to pay you back if if a salon closed it’s probably more questionable but Boas Johnson was saying last night and doesn’t matter what my politics are but he was saying last night Bert this was he hoped going to last for weeks and we’d all come out at the end of a and we’ve invested a lot of money in our staff and particularly our Julia staff and getting through was better than getting rid so something tonight’s measures are about helping employers not have to he uses the term lay off staff I don’t like I think they are right with the schools closing can someone insists that the one to work from home and get paid even if it isn’t viable in our line of work no it has to be agreed I mean the advice is that we’re trying to allow everybody who come to work at home but clearly you can’t work at home if you are a beauty therapist you know he just isn’t boss people being very inventive we’ve heard about restaurants becoming takeaways and I’m sure there might be some people offering mobile services but no you can’t realistically say you can stay at home and so can you make father’s and partners responsible you know it’s like a sort of a therapist if their two children for example school is there a way that you can like Fallon can say well we need you you know it needs to be your partner who takes the time off not really you can suggest it but subtly doesn’t happen in a certain lots of cases and again it’s one of those things where what options are people guys in a movie situation the scores are shorter desperately short notice and the children are home and we’ve been advised not to go to grandparents so but know you can you can ask what’s forefather doing and you can ask whatever you want but no you couldn’t insist someone came in because they had other care potentially right how long can you reduce hours for I think you said you can’t how long can you reduce hours for or temporary layoffs if you if you get stuff to agree to reduce hours I suspect one of the issues that they’ll ask is how long is it for and there aren’t any laws about how long it can it’s about how long will somebody agree to it so I might agree to drop a Friday for four weeks but I wouldn’t agree to drop a Friday for four months so it’s about is really about talking individually to stuff now people keep using the term layoffs and I deliberately don’t have layoffs in my contract but if you do have a layoff paragraphing yukon contract you just need to be wary because if you lay stuff off you have to pay from pounds a day for the first five days so there’s a cost then in theory you say to a man pay nothing for three weeks but after four weeks we’re able to make a claim for redundancy pay so it’s difficult because realistically if you have a level of thinking I’m not going to use someone for the next four weeks it’s almost people to make them redundant when is to lay them off because those first four weeks when we’re getting no pay would have been part of their notice but I say to people just be really careful because there’s going to be an announcement tonight because obviously we’re giving away a lot of information here and if someone’s front to keep trying to make notes I just wanted to say this it’s going to be recorded so you will be able to listen to it back afterwards so and so get a cup of coffee instead of like frantically trying to make notes because it you say you can even skip back to the bits that you need can and someone claim benefits if their hours are reduced power depends on their personal circumstances I don’t know the answers about me it would be people can claim benefits when were working full time depending on their earnings and their circumstances but I don’t know the answer right I think if the drop below a certain amount will benefits kick in and I think again that’s down to everyone’s personal services yes because it’s a household thing well an individual thing right and if someone’s on a probation period you’d be the first to go and then re-employ later that’s a good question because redundancy law says lastin first-out probably shouldn’t be used but if it was separate from we don’t insane people in probation I mean what I would say is if you’re over issues with stuff information well then there were an obvious target if someone’s in their probationary period and working quite normally and you’d want to keep them you’ve already invested some money in training I would wait for tonight’s announcement and see what’s available for you please no way through is there anything we can do differently if we decide to close rather than being enforced on us in lockdown all happen is people can using the word lockdown but whatever is going to be announced will apply to us all now let’s say for example the government decides we’re all businesses apart from food shops after closed on Monday and all staff men are basically covered because it’s virus related and the government’s going to pay them half pay well that will be the rule for all businesses now some businesses already are announcing will pay their staff three-quarters pay or full pay there’ll be an individual business decision realistically once the announcement comes we’ll just have to adhere to it about a builder minimum it will be a matter if Bowie says we’re shutting on Wednesday we can’t short and decide the staff are going to use their holidays instead as far as I know but we haven’t got we have a decision or the legislation it’s midnight when he makes the announcement midnight here but I’ve been staying up just to like spoke about yesterday is fine to say every business is going to get a grant but it takes for people who are writing the rules for that and the people who are paying with when was a cap short time and more even after we announced from the world Nova detail yeah I mean seems like sending me in for a head of light what’s gone out like that the memo was there getting around which is being great but like you know obviously I can’t release any of it because it could change but you know it’s like I think things are getting really some then it’s like well how are we going to do that kind of thing you know and nobody like in the local authority knows beforehand then it’s like right how is that going to actually happen so I think the Grunch thing from the memoirs and things I’ve had seemed to be that like it’s going to be Monday there a lot of that gets released because I think then it weekend – so can you temporarily suspend or do you have to make someone redundant well I will use a word suspend let’s turn you around you can make someone with London and mouse eight there isn’t a rule that says go away for three months and I’m suspending your job one no pay someone can agree to that someone can say I have three months unpaid leave but obviously we’re still employed but there isn’t an available sanction to suspend people on no pay to wait for a period of time right right so if you make someone redundant and obviously it’s tough at the moment whether or not like you’ve got money to pay anyone anyway how much is that gonna cost makes money okay we do throw a few faxing so you’ve got to have two years service to claim to be eligible for redundancy if you get may be redundant everybody gets notice which is one week for each full year of service to a maximum of
so my note is pay would if I have
year service and get weeks notice now paid from Kimani the redundancy pay is is different so you notice anyway we don’t say depends on your age as well as you Lang for service so this will be something people record if you’re if I work for you between the ages of and I get half a week’s pay might be and but you get half a week’s pay for each year service service between and up to it’s a week for each year of service that’s the age that most people be in if you’ve got service over it’s one and a half weeks paid per year of service so for example once given example somebody who’s aged with ten years service will get weeks notice and then they’ll get something like six weeks redundancy pay one week per year for weeks for dormancy pays at one and a half weeks a year that’s probably as clear as mod but the notice is always the same a week per year the redundancy pay depends on the age if you were making someone redundant what’s the process you need to go through to do that the process is three stages I’m assuming these are small numbers if it’s over people you’ve then got to consult with them for days so full of people in a small business there’s three stages you meet when you meet and consult with them and say I am thinking of closing the business or whatever I’m thinking to making X number of people we don’t don’t I’m going to consult with you whatever that means over the next day or so meet with people individually because they might have some questions or alternative solutions and then you meet them formally and they’re dismissed which is redundancy I’ll just give you an example where we change someone a couple of weeks ago was going to trim their staff by one and they had five staff and the rest of the staff got together and said well from one of us losing our jobs we’ll all agree to drop to four days a week we’ve got the same outcome so you’d always consult it might be short there might be no options whatsoever but you consult me more people individually listen to what we have to say and then make a decision that can be fairly quick can use the statutory sick pay if someone is ill oh can you put oh can you put all staff on it for the two weeks because the rules are going to be for how employers we cover this two-week pay because I don’t even think they’re published yet everyone’s guessing you’ll deduct it from your national insurance contributions and I don’t know however plip how the government will please if people have genuinely been off for the right reason whatever but you couldn’t impose on staff anyway so even if you are lawfully staff and we all said yes let’s all go sick for two weeks even though we have got any virus or any connection with virus I don’t know what the policing mechanism is to to check that out for so us I would say it’s probably unlikely at the other end do we have to re-employ all and stack on the same hours it’s like this is like we’re going to lock down a thank you and at the other end do we have to re-employ all on the same hours or kind of be staged or stay reduced so that means you know when when come back obviously it could be that it’s gonna take a little while for the business to like be reestablished this is presuming that likes me the roses all goes into lockdown yeah yeah it’s great question don’t know the answer legislation yet but it is you know it’s one of those really good questions I don’t know you I mean I imagine not one of my questions yesterday which they also don’t know the answer to is if we’re going to lock down for three months to staff still accrue holidays now one of the things is if they do if you haven’t already taken them and that might be when you decide to impose your holiday so that people work a three-day week for the first few weeks back the answer to the question is in theory as he stands now apart from me want to say I don’t know because I’m got a decision but you imagine the people who were turned away because of a lockdown for a period of time will come back to the job that they left in the hours it could be one of those things where it’s just a person like sort of an agreement between a team as well could Nick you know will be loss of business will be people queuing around the block to get in I had loss of customers will be bringing in same we’re really really busy this week because everyone’s quote getting in while they can so you imagine after a shutdown of two months so I think it matters a lot to what is said in that announcement as well and all on Monday and we closed on a Monday but on Tuesday we had a lot of cancellations but then the message on Tuesday was seemed a lot more of beat and we didn’t have any cancellations yeah right someone that’s also about zero hour contracts for the future to start with so can you change someone’s contract if they’re on a contract now say we’re going to look down or no terms are contracting matter and asking to introduce new paragraph and things like that what we haven’t got yet sewers in which I mean this is why I’ve been so hesitant we don’t know if today Boies will say there’s an automatic writing for claim of unfair dismissal if you’re dismissed because of a virus because we’re going to pay employers x y&z and we just don’t know there isn’t so someone who’s in probation has very little protection might change tonight this one’s a good one what if an employee says that they’ve been effective it’s affected their mental health and want to go on the sick or long term sick well then go on long term sick ones all to see do you need to speak to staff with daily updates now and if there is a lockdown oh what’s a reasonable contact kind of thing well I think that’s going to depend on everybody individually you’d always everybody would always say give staff as much information as you’ve got and positive in use take the stuff with you and no one’s going to say we haven’t got the information but there’s nothing in terms the person following me and probably much better to give advice on that question yeah yeah yeah and right and is there a way to get is there a way to get rid of staff that weren’t pulling their wage or require it anyway I think like can you use this is a bit of an excuse to get rid of like this probably worse I mean if you think I mean realistically if you’ve got people in performing we’ve had a probationary period you’ve out however long they’ve been there to sort it out and redundancy is meant to be because there’s not enough word not because someone’s not very good oh if they’re any of the rules for apprentices or everything just apply the same no preferences are different we have different rules in England Scotland and Wales so I’m going to be quite general the expectation is apprentices our last resort for redundancy and that’s for a few reasons is because I’ll count myself as an apprentice I’m on a fixed term training contract for a short period of time a year to months two years I’m not eligible for minimum wage I’m not part of your establishment only money for the salon I’m there because you’re training me to get a qualification and that’s your deal with me to get training for a qualification so typically you can see why princes might be the easy target but they’re supposed to be our investment for the future and we’re really supposed to be last not first and if you were looking at making apprentice redundant laughing the expectation is you go to the you know impossible times now this was great three weeks ago you go back to the college or back to the training provider and say I’ve got an apprentice or surplus to requirements I’ve paid all this money and wages to train them for months can you find him a home for the last five months and normally that works really successfully so back to the question apprentices are supposed to be last rather than the first but these are exceptional circumstances is there any grants that can be used for wages well I think this is what Boris it’ll be announced for television tonight yeah what if you can’t afford to pay this month’s wages or if like say for example that you know you’re on you pay weekly wages and things quite tight yeah would you do if you can’t afford if you can’t if you can’t physically do it it’s nothing different than before we had the virus it would be you close you make Mustafi London unless you have any option of course it’s back of everything we said you can talk to a staff and say I am desperately struggling as an alternative to redundancy will you take a week’s unpaid or whatever you can persuade them to do but the bottom line is you would close your business and if you can’t afford to pay for redundancy pay then you’re going to receive a ship and the people may have a claim from a government I think that’s gonna be overtaken by the winds today all right you please I’ve got to the end of the questions now what I’m going to do is I’m just going to check because I’m all Connor has been and sort of gone through to make sure were that you because there would have been a lot of duplicate questions and right so kind of sensory released and so I’ve got another four questions if there are no clients and you charge their hours to a different day oh then you change their hours to a different day but they can’t do that because of sake child care what do you do I mean that’s very very specific but it presupposes you can change my hours to a different day and I don’t think that’s legitimate if I’m employed for four hours on a Tuesday that’s when I work it’s no point saying to me on Tuesday don’t come in and moving you to Wednesday if I can’t if I can’t come in so I’d expect to be paid for Tuesday right second one I offered a therapist a part-time job she started on the ninth of a well she starts on the th of April she’s working for foot she’s working here for weeks nor just currently where do I stand if I have no work or we have to clause do you won’t have to offer her the job there’s a few things there first of all we don’t know what today’s announcements going to tell us because he’s bound to be one of the questions people about to start a job or apart to leave a job or apart maybe going to go on maternity or something ignore when taking us out of various time what you always able to do is withdraw the offer I mean it’s desperate if someone’s working my notes and then to leave a job because you imagine an employer because the employees don’t have to give them their job back but the safest legal way is to say I’m going to withdraw your offer hopefully come to some agreement or you say to them in advance on day one I’ll end your and your employment in your probationary period and pay you a weeks notice the hard situation isn’t it because the you know that you can’t really go back because or be unreduced or not as busy as the word loss of those employees wanting holidays and now want to counsel them because there’s no flies do I have to agree well the answers you don’t have to agree you know every case is different lots of employers seem to me people are at handed in my notice now they want to change their mind can we do so and again the answer normal sentences no you know these are really special circumstances next one oh yeah because pregnancy obviously is a big thing I have a pregnant member of staff and I have a pregnant member of staff is enforced isolation and she’s enforced isolation she’s currently using a holiday when the fats gone can she claim sick pee or does she have to start the maternity but the advice is that pregnant stuff for now at risk and I think she’s talking about -week period you should go into isolation whatever that means now if you’re sick they can I use my holiday as far as I’m aware legally they can then just refer back to such receipt pay now it really depends how many weeks pregnant we are because you can start maternity leave for twenty nine weeks and might be an option from a person equally religious lations says that if you get within the last four weeks of before the baby’s due an employer can enforce maternity leave if you have a pregnancy related illness now is this the pregnancy related illness i I don’t know but I think the thing is realistically the person can self isolate for weeks so if they’ve used holiday and they’re not starting a maternity leave and they wouldn’t come at work they’ll be on ssp right okay last one can I tell a member of staff he was on he was in probation that from the end of the month I do not have a job for her she is receptionist to her me to protect therapists jobs all the receptionist’s desk any well in theory yes again I would wait for tonight because by the end of the month you know we might be closed but in theory yes because you’d have insufficient work because of whatever reason so it’s why I guess we’ll get some very specific instruction because the government are gonna pour billions tonight I hope into keeping people in jobs and I think the expectation is that there will be some rules around what employers can and can’t do if we gain those benefits but we really just have to wait and see what do that Saul my questions is there anything that you think we haven’t covered that you sort of had lots of questions about that I had lots of questions no not really I mean most people want to know what’s going to happen in the future and hopefully we’re gonna find out tonight I’m specific circumstances right we’ve just had we just had another quick three right will quickly do these calls I know I know sorry about this I just I just asked what happens if staff are currently on maternity and business claim the maternity pay up front do you they have to pay even if they are closed odd do we yes so if someone’s on maternity that’s like whether the employee became some questions from some fantastic enlightened employers are getting some questions which seem like is Charles Dickens but if someone’s on maternity leave they either get their maternity pay from the employer because the government is going to pay them or if an are employed we get it from the state so if you’ve claimed all the maternity allowance pay back for a year you’ve claimed what you’re going to pay the employee and it will continue so that we the same if you make somebody on maternity leave redundant you they still get their maternity pay paid on to the end of a period and do I need it in writing from staff that they’ve agreed to cut hours to concerts that consolidate clients ideally yes or turn around and you give them a letter so you’ll say dear Davies thank you very much I might to confirm you’ve agreed to drop your rounds from to for a period of X weeks come on get them to sign in as probably easy for you to it last one what if someone chooses to go into self isolation are we still responsible to pay in them after the two weeks with that the government have said they’ll pay well in fear we know because for self-oscillation payer is supposed to be two weeks after that if we go sequencing note yeah yes a first thing you would have to pay you and you won’t get the money back right David thank you so much that has been it you know and hopefully that answers a lot of questions from people who today so hopefully you’ll not have and but you know I cannot thank you enough some really clear good news tonight yeah yeah thanks again and well no doubt I’ll be calling on you again soon

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